APA Member Interview: Skye Cleary

The APA blog is working with Cliff Sosis of What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher? in publishing advance excerpts from Cliff’s long-form interviews with philosophers.

The following is an edited excerpt from the interview with Russ Shafer-Landau.

In this interview, Skye Cleary, lecturer at Columbia University, discusses honesty and religion, the Magic Faraway Tree, taekwondo, anxiety, going to Sydney University to study German and economics, a priori duties, becoming an equity arbitrage trader, going to Macquarie Graduate School of Management and taking philosophical business classes, Homeric armies, getting an MBA and pursuing a PhD in philosophy after a conversation about love with a teacher, existentialism, love, moving to NYC, teaching at Columbia, grading on a curve, teaching in prison, Theatre of the Oppressed, editing the APA Blog, philosophy on the internet, working on a series of Great Courses lectures on Existentialism, The Outsider, DJing, and dancing…

[Interviewer: Cliff Sosis]

Any sign you’d grow up to be a philosopher?

No. Unless you count that my parents would tell me I’m “the original REBT baby” because when I was very young they had learned about Albert Ellis’s psychotherapy and would ask me things like “why are you upsetting yourself?” when I was upset.

Why was philosophy disappointing?

I loved logic, but the curriculum was heavily analytical. If only I had learned more about existentialism back then!

Any advice for young Skye?

You’re going to be ok. You don’t have to be or marry a lawyer or doctor to be happy and successful. (Not that there’s anything wrong with either of those things.) And logical family is more important than biological family. You don’t have to respect horrible people, even if it’s your so-called duty. I want to tell her what Simone de Beauvoir taught me many years later: That there are no a priori duties. So many of the so-called duties imposed on us are patriarchal constructs, designed to control us.

I think a lot of people interested in philosophy figure they will pursue a career in something more lucrative, and then do philosophy on the weekend, for fun. Is an MBA typically philosophical?

Some business schools integrate philosophical elements. Philosophy has been an option at business schools such as Wharton, London Business School, Copenhagen Business School, University of Oxford, as well as Yale, Carnegie Mellon, Duke, and others.

Where did you want to go to grad school for philosophy, and why? What was the goal? What Is It Like to Be a Philosopher?

Around my MBA graduation, I was talking with one of my professors about the philosophy of love. I was going through a breakup with a boyfriend and it seemed to me that it was much easier to stop loving someone than to start loving them. I was baffled by the question as to whether we can choose to love. My professor said, “some people say that love chooses you.” Then he suggested I do a PhD on the topic. It had never before occurred to me. A PhD seemed so completely out of the realm of possibilities for me. It was something only smart people did. But I did want to write, and I had burning questions, so it seemed like a good idea at the time. This professor was at Macquarie University, so that’s where I applied. I did the first 18 months part-time while I worked in management consulting. When I was awarded a scholarship, I switched to full-time. My goal was to answer the question:

Any interesting projects on the horizon?

My most recent project, a 24-lecture series on existentialism for The Great Courses/Wondrium, was published in early 2024. It covers many of the usual existential suspects—Soren Kierkegaard, Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Simone de Beauvoir, Albert Camus, Frantz Fanon, Richard Wright, and Toni Morrison. I’ve also started a new role as Thinking Partner with Philosophy at Work, working with organizations to inspire people to think better (more philosophically) about workplace challenges and possibilities. As for my next project, I’m not ready to talk about it yet!

Any advice for graduate students?

My advice is not to have a baby in the middle of a PhD. Some people told me I’d have plenty of time to work while the baby was sleeping. But he didn’t sleep well, and neither did I. My other piece of advice is to spend a good amount of time at the beginning to create a research question that will carry you through. It seems obvious, perhaps, but I saw how other candidates switched their topics and doing so derailed their plans and created so much anguish. I tweaked small things along the way, but I was committed enough to the original question that it helped me to stay on track and overcome my lowest points.

What was your first time teaching in the classroom like?

During my PhD studies, I taught classes in Sydney and found it terrifying and exhilarating at the same time. What if a student asked me a question and I didn’t know the answer?? It took time for me to realize I didn’t have to have all the answers pre-packaged. When I started teaching in New York City (Baruch College, and then Columbia University, Barnard College, and City College of New York (I still teach at Columbia), it took a minute for me to get used to the grading policies. In Australia, we grade on a curve. Students rarely contest their grades. When I moved to the U.S., I initially graded as I had always done in Australia. Many students were furious and complained about my “harsh” grading. I had to learn to shift my grading practices quickly.

In general, how have you evolved as a teacher?

I used to be a lot stricter because that’s what my teachers were like, and I thought that’s what I needed to do to be accepted and respected. But I’ve become a lot more patient. When there’s a problem, I try to think in terms of what’s fair and kind. I don’t always get it right! But it’s generally a good guideline. Students seem to appreciate it and rarely take advantage of it.

Favorite books (fiction)?

My current favorite is Richard Wright’s The Outsider. It’s a kind of existential murder mystery and Wright’s writing is so beautifully vivacious and exciting. It can be read as a thought experiment: what would happen if you cut ties with everything around you and started your life completely afresh? How might it be possible? What would you gain? What would you have to give up? Wright deals with a lot of existential themes including death, dread, identity, authenticity, radical freedom, momentous choices, extreme consequences, responsibility to oneself and others, as well as politics, religion, and art. It’s been called “The first existentialist novel written by an American” and I love it.

If you could ask an omniscient, omnibenevolent, perfectly honest being one question and get an answer, what would it be?

Their existence would answer a lot in itself. I’d ask: “wtf?” But seriously, why? Why are we? Why am I? I imagine her answer might be “why not?” Still, it’d be helpful to have confirmation of that.

This section of the APA Blog is designed to get to know our fellow philosophers a little better. We’re including profiles of APA members that spotlight what captures their interest not only inside the office, but also outside of it. We’d love for you to be a part of it, so please contact us via the interview nomination form here to nominate yourself or a friend.

Smrutipriya Pattnaik

Smrutipriya Pattnaik, Ph.D. in Social and Political Philosophy from IIT Indore, India serves as the Teaching Beat and Work/Life Balance editor for the APA Blog. Her research delves into utopia, social imagination, and politics, with a focus on the aftermath of socialist experiments on Liberal-Capitalist-Democratic societies. Currently authoring "Politics, Utopia, and Social Imagination."