The Philosophy? WTF? Podcast: Philosophy Outside Academia

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The sound of laughing and conversation

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Dr Mike Alsford: So, Danny. As I recall, the idea for our podcast, Philosophy? WTF??,  was very much yours. I was minding my own business when you got in touch and suggested it. Why? Why would you do this?

Danny O’Donnell: Well, there are a few answers to this question! I’ve been a fan of podcasts for a while. I particularly like the shows where a couple of presenters dissect pieces of modern culture and explore the different ideas and themes within. These shows are very accessible and interesting because listeners can easily engage with the chat–they are aware of the cultural references and can relate to the views. It occurred to me that I could attempt the same thing, but with the big ideas. I wanted to produce a show about philosophy that didn’t talk down to its audience, but at the same time would bring them with it to even the most challenging ideas. Preparing the programme, I thought that what we needed was one person as the ‘layman’, to be the link between those listeners who have little experience of philosophy but are ready to hear more: this would be me. Also we needed an ‘expert’ who would help explain and develop the ideas in an engaging, friendly, but authoritative way. I naturally thought of you for this role. But of course, while I admit the podcast was initially my fault, you jumped on the bandwagon with very little need for encouragement. What made you do that?

Dr Mike: Well, as you know,  part of my academic training involved developing the ability to take a ludicrous amount of pleasure in the sound of my own voice and I think this come across well in the podcasts. I’ve always believed that the big ideas are of interest to everyone but that people are often put off from engaging with them for fear of sounding stupid. Having taught undergraduates for many years, this is one of the first obstacles to overcome. Issues such as what is truth? How should I behave? What is real?, these are at the heart of what it is to be a human being in a shared world. People frequently confuse a lack of familiarity with the philosophical tool kit with an inability to engage with topics. Many of the courses I have taught and books I have written have attempted to create a familiar exploratory space within which to enter into philosophical debates, almost by stealth! I have found that its often far easier to get people to discuss the ethical difference between, say, Batman and Superman than it is to jump straight into Kant and deontological ethics. It’s like getting your kids to eat broccoli by pretending it’s a train entering a tunnel: before long they are happily consuming all manner of cruciferous veg because they recognise its benefits and actually develop a taste for it. The podcast seemed like a fantastic opportunity to chat in a relaxed and groovy way about philosophy with a good friend in the hope that people will feel like they want to pull up a chair, grab a pint and listen in. That said, it is possible that some people might find our style a little too irreverent given the seriousness of the topics under discussion – what do you think? Are we trivialising the great thinkers of the past by dragging them into a pub conversation?

Danny: I think this is the most import question. Great thought can happen anywhere. Descartes used to ‘philosophise’ in his bed for hours in the mornings and Heidegger used to retire to his Alpine shed for a think. What’s wrong with great minds chatting in a pub? Didn’t Watson and Crick thump out the details of DNA in the Eagle pub in Cambridge? Didn’t Marx and Engels, between pub crawls, debate the finer points of Communist revolution over a pint? A pub setting is perfect because I think most people can relate to it. Once you’ve had a few beers, the defences are down and you can ruminate on all manner of challenging thoughts and ideas. Everyone can get a say, and carefully explaining Hegel’s dialectic to a person who might have had a few too many – and get them to understand it – is a worthy challenge!

Podcasts are becoming extremely popular and are a very exciting format. They are instantly available and can be listened to almost anywhere and at anytime. In your mind’s eye, who do you imagine listens to us and where might they do so?

Dr. Mike: I think our listener is probably someone with too much time on their hands and a lack of discernment with regard to digital content. Actually, I don’t think that at all–well not much. I know for a fact that our listeners are very varied. There are young students, older professionals, people who listen on their way to work and others who binge listen at the weekend. We have listeners who have an academic background, some even in philosophy, and we have some from entirely different, more vocational backgrounds such as nursing. The simple fact of the matter is, as far as I can see, we have no obvious audience. Unlike gaming or music podcasts, I don’t think we appeal to a specific interest group or demographic. I’d like to think that anyone who has ever thought “what’s it all about?” is our potential audience. I did hear from one listener who confessed that they’d been having a rough time and was finding it difficult to leave the house but they would stick their headphones on and listen to the podcast as they went out and it helped them to relax and put things in perspective. I loved that so much. Someone contacted me the other day to say that she and her new husband had been listening to the podcasts while decorating their home – got a blast out of that too!

Danny: It is very satisfying hearing that lots of different people, from lots of different backgrounds have been enjoying our chat as much as we have been. As well as a type of entertainment, I also hope that we might inspire a few people to take up some serious study as well!  Do you think that there might be an increase in the popularity of the subject of philosophy as a result of a wider access to it through podcasts and other popular mediums?

Dr. Mike: You know what? I honestly couldn’t say. I’d like to think that the discipline has a future, it would be a dark and dangerous world if people didn’t ask the big questions and then go on to explore them. While I’m not 100% behind Socrates’ claim, “the unexamined life is not worth living,” there is at least a partial truth there.  Accepting something just because someone has asserted it, believing something is good just because it is part of a tradition, buying something just because an advert assures us it’s Green/Cool/Sexy/”Scientifically Proven”, and so on, places us on the road to slavery–slavery of the mind. Unfortunately, in these economically trying times where an undergraduate education can cost upwards of £9k a year, it is not surprising to find that students are shying away from subjects that don’t appear to have an immediate cash value. Whether people will find alternative routes into the arts and humanities in more informal ways remains to be seen. I’d like to think that our podcast is helping to contribute to this in some small way. I remember that there was a huge resurgence in the popularity of archaeology after the release of the first Indiana Jones film – perhaps we need to start work on a philosophy action movies franchise: “Wittgenstein: He came to chew bubblegum  and formulate an understanding of the world as engaged with on the basis of discrete but overlapping language games… and he is all out of bubblegum”.

It is interesting that children’s stories routinely encourage young kids to consider ethical and social issues. From the earliest Fairy Tales we are taught not to be greedy, not to trust the quick fix, not to be vain and to treat others kindly and well. You have young kids, Danny, do you make an effort to philosophically engage them? How old do you think someone needs to be before these ideas start to become relevant? Does our podcast need to come with an age restriction? Or a height restriction perhaps? “You need to be this tall to ride on Plato’s Wild Cave Rollercoaster.”

Danny: Interestingly, I’ve often found my kids say the most profound things and ask the most insightful questions. I remember when my daughter, who was about three at the time, said one evening after I had read her a bedtime story that she ‘had a story in her mouth.’ She had thought of a story for me to hear and that her mouth had thought of it. It reminded me of Wittgenstein who asked the question Where does thinking happen? Why do we assume in our head if we use other parts of our body, like our hands, when writing? Also, kids can ask devastatingly simple questions that force us to stop and think about our long held ideas of the world, for example ‘where was I before I was born?’ The problem comes, I think, when we try and introduce more complex ideas that rely on acceptance of a few concepts that the children haven’t really got a grip on yet. We can’t really discuss Descartes, for example, without them having a good idea of what ‘reason’ and ‘imagination’ are in a philosophical context. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there should be an age restriction on philosophy but I think children’s philosophy would be an altogether different beast. Perhaps we should start a new podcast about it.

The sound of laughing and conversation

The creak of a door closing

crunch of footsteps on gravel

Danny O'Donnell

Danny O'Donnell is a MPhil graduate who currently lives in Oxford, UK.  Danny met his friend and future podcast partner Dr. Michael Alsford whilst attending the latter's 'Philosophical Themes in Future Fiction' lectures at Greenwich University in the 90's.

Mike Alsford

Mike Alsford has taught philosophy in higher education for literally hundreds of years. His PhD research was in the field of human identity and personhood. This is a philosophical fascination that has maintained its allure ever since. He has always enjoyed the challenge of making philosophical ideas accessible to a wide audience and this is reflected in his two books, “What If?” and “Heroes & Villains”. He has cats.